").Furthermore, an objective world view would be in direct opposition to the idea of torture, as it would be impossible to force, through torture or other means, a particular view, opinion or world view. But note that historically our own university (BYU) has a reputation for punishing those whose learning leads to questioning religious authority (which is why I think BYU is "closed minded" primarily).I do think it is justifiable to believe in God, and I think faith is important (it is in my own life) and I use Mormonism as my vehicle of choice to increase my faith. Maybe it doesn’t actually matter whether there’s a physical world beyond the mind. Why not comment that drinking a Jamba Juice isn't needed to do science as that observation is as relevant to what is being discussed as well. But you couldn't grasp step one: that it is possible to construct a set of things that are true.So, I realized we had to go slowly as this was a tricky concept. Another myopic observation that is easier said then backed.Also, nobody is arguing the label religion is needed to be a scientist so why are you arguing a moot point? Thus inspiration, or revelation, does not work through any one sense, but with the foundation of our senses. In order for us to be able to differentiate between idealism and realism, we must first have a thorough understanding of the two terms. Well, you as a person, as a spirit, it was not ; however, you took it as if it is a personal attack, and that is after nearly 50 comments worth of dialog! What does this have to do with religious scientists being oxymorons? "I can assure you I do not see this on any significant level. It is opposed to epistemological idealism.. Epistemological realism is related directly to the correspondence theory of truth, which claims that the world exists independently and innately to our perceptions of it. Madsen explains it) intuition is simply a manifestation of the cumulative knowledge that we have gained before this life (and some in this life). In popular usage, an idealist is someone who believes in high ideals and strives to make them real, even though they may be impossible. Idealism vs Realism. "I can not speak of the evils or goodness unless I have experienced it!" This means that knowledge of God must first be gained independently and personally, but after that knowledge is gained it is subject to the system of objective checks and balances, meaning before I can claim experience with God in a rational way, it must be independently verified by the personal experiences of others. This is notbecause such people are thought to be devoted to a philosophicaldoctrine but because of their outlook on life generally; indeed, theymay even be pitied, or perhaps envied, for displaying a naïveworldview and not being philosophically critical at all. JS,Yes, you were trying to be condescending. This is the version of epistemological idealism which interested Ludwig Boltzmann; it had roots in the positivism of Ernst Mach "Consider Mormonism." This is to say that a literal interpretation of LDS scripture would be perfectly consistent with an old earth, and these ideas can be taught (and have!) Further, your definition of religion as "to believe without personal knowledge (or experience)" is not a definition most people, even people antagonistic to religion, would use. Is it like adding sugar in coffee? Ancient1,Do you mean oxymoron in the sense that it is impossible to have a religious scientist? Why don't you look at my comments on this post, and previous post of NN about Priest. Then three... until the earring is constructed as you do this countably many times. 131 7 7 bronze badges. The difference is that fundamental. Idealism Vs. Realism . So are materialism and neutral monism. There is no weapon, argument or brainwashing that can force anyone to learn or know anything (cf. IR theories can be roughly divided into one of two epistemological camps: "positivist" and "post-positivist". Update, QL42 posted a response between when I started writing mine and when I published it. Realists believe that everything exists in a reality independent of the observer. Followers 1. Hence the comments of Hawking I alluded to.The Wikipedia article on theory of everything discusses Godel's theorem with some back and forth and concludes: "Analogously, it may (or may not) be possible to completely state the underlying rules of physics with a finite number of well-defined laws, but there is little doubt that there are questions about the behavior of physical systems which are formally undecidable on the basis of those underlying laws." It is important to note that there are three main strands in Hegel’s idealism, an epistemological strand, an ontological strand, and a moral strand. Certainly most people in your Sunday School class at least speak as if these things are to be taken literally.Now consider it from the church's point of view. Because we are experiencing an objective reality, no one can claim exclusive insight into reality that others cannot access. For example, in education idealism can be seen in the learning process as teachers educate the children … The best we can do is speak from experience and explain what we know and invite others to have the same experience. *No* human is immune to personal bias entering their lives but my suggestion is that people who persistently publish in respected science journals are doing a good enough job doing science that it isn't biased to the extent that the science is being significantly contaminated. As Will Rogers put it, "There are three kinds of men. And, it is the country and flag that leads us to wars for the benefits of power seekers or megalomaniacs. This verification happens through a rational, logical discourse, which of necessity cannot happen until those involved have had similar experiences on which to base their conversation. Wow, I've never actually met anyone who ever claimed to be a strict idealist. Penrose On Whether A Platonic Objectivity Can Exist Independent of Human Minds. This is a process that is repeatable between other people, which adds to evidence for or against our knowledge.Essentially all he said is that two people cannot both talk about how fun Disneyland is without both having actually experienced Disneyland personally. The fact you are arguing against this point, which has not even been raised by anyone else, means it is something plaguing your mind not theirs. raedyohed,What part of science you can not do because it conflicts with your qualifier LDS? QL42,Youu have engaged in Clinton type arguments. "He said, "before I can claim experience with God in a rational way, it must be independently verified by the personal experiences of others. This works because the sensations of our spirits (little "s") are what underly all of our sensations and experiences. It is an act of faith to take a bite in the bread offered by a stranger. -- Yes, to a point. But the core meaning of realism is, I believe, epistemological. Maybe two strict realists who don't have any data in common can't have a meaningful dialogue, but two idealists who are able to reason along the same lines can. But this is not because intuition is fundamentally at odds with objectivity, but rather because our scope of understanding and the range of our knowledge is limited.I think inspiration must work in a similar manner. There are none. In thinking this way I have generally distinguished along similar lines as you've articulated here. Idealism seeks to create intellectual beings and places. Thus an idealist who has experienced the divine might successfully discourse with another idealist who can identify with their analysis. They typically focus on features of international relations such as state interactions, size of military forces, balance of powers etc. Do you want me to be helpful or not?Now, it turns out Godel showed these things that a formal system fails to prove are true, not both true and false at the same time so I'm confused how you can imagine something being both true and false.Now, and I'm trying to not sound condescending here, but a member of the set of things that is true is not also false. *That* I would be interested in. So, I have had personal experiences with God similar to what QL42 has had, therefore we can have rational, logical discourses about God. In other words, using anecdotal experiences to verify other anecdotal experiences is what scientists do in order to learn about an objective reality. Some have argued, though, that Plato nevertheless also held to a position similar to Immanuel Kant's Transcendental Idealism. The act of proselytizing has the following as it's ultimate goal, as QL42 articulated: "If I believe God is speaking to me, then others must be able to verify whether or not it is true through the exact same mechanism." This view is compatible with physicalism (eliminative and reductive materialism), emergent materialism, and dualism, and even objective idealism, but incompatible with subjective idealism (solipsism, phenomenalism). This verification happens through a rational, logical discourse, which of necessity cannot happen until those involved have had similar experiences on which to base their conversation.The troubling part is that this discourse requires like-minded people, otherwise, the experience can not be shared. Epistemological idealism suggests that everything we experience and know is of a mental nature—sense data in philosophical jargon. Epistemological Realism vs. Epistemological Idealism Started by Consilience, September 23, 2019. Science of belief?I know you all do good science, but we all have heard of data manipulation to meet the beliefs of scientists. idealism and a loosening intellectual grip on the real world. I could equally say "to do science we don't need male scientists" and so should that lead me to conclude we don't need men? You are stuck on peer review, so I will take it one step further. As a result, we continue this tenuous relationship between mythological and literal interpretations. Ancient1 - That's an interesting question, I think mostly stemming from the notion that meaningful discourse cannot take place unless the discussants "separately have personal experiences with God" then." The bulk of contemporary epistemology has focused primarily on that task of justification. Relativism is a family of philosophical views which deny claims to objectivity within a particular domain and assert that facts in that domain are relative to the perspective of an observer or the context in which they are assessed. If that is your issue I would say look around and you may find some. It is like physiological projection where some issue you might struggle with you start assuming everyone else does too.Nobody thinks religious labels are required for science. Realism and idealism on the other hand differ greatly on an ontological level. "Especially, in advancing religions." "Ontological realism" is can be used to mean the thesis that something real exists. Objective idealism is a form of realism. I consider your act of deletion as a demonstration of cowardliness of spirit; yet, you did feel compelled to explain your action, and that makes me happy.Further you offered me to let you know others comments I find as attack. Don't we have to go out on a limb and be idealists for this to happen?" The most influential critics of both epistemological and ontological idealism were G. E. Moore and Bertrand Russell, but its critics also included the new realists. Or, two people cannot talk rationally and logically about the taste of oranges if both have not tasted oranges.There's nothing about imposing beliefs on others. He and I both independently said much the same thing though. Ancient1,I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm trying to bring myself to believe you want to honestly understand why I think a religious scientist isn't an oxymoron. To be honest, I really want to figure out how to keep the discussions peaceful enough so that people who would like to respond don't feel too intimidated.Lots of people have very interesting things to say. If so, how does 4 come to exist? Just to point out I am not a Mormon so don't try to skirt around the issue as you did with others by insulting mormons. Ancient1,Sorry if I came across with a condescending tone. In reality, the apple is red. While Plato, and his "footnotes", maintain that they are observing an objective reality, it seems that they are wholly dependent on "data [that] is separate from the observer's experience." What it is NOT is an epistemological stance or idealism or any other stance where reality supervenes on mind or concepts. Meaning these concepts are opposing approaches about everything around. I have chosen for my ontology, critical realism, and for my epistemology, social constructionism. Moving . share | improve this question | follow | edited Mar 29 at 11:27. QL42,I find the last paragraph of your post troubling. My point is, when it comes to real science I can assure you it is being done correctly around here and no part of being LDS prevents this. These epistemological roots of idealism gain a foothold by virtue of certain social factors, having their origin in the division between mental and manual labor, as a result of which “consciousness is in a position to emancipate itself from the world” (Marx and Engels, Soch., 2nd ed., vol. ancient1: Why don't you define what being smart is you pretend know-it-all! Ancient1, well now you are going to have to define what science is as I almost wet my pants laughing at the idea that since orangutans swing through trees they must be better at doing experimental science than those around here.Oh, Oh, let me guess! This verification happens through a rational, logical discourse, which of necessity cannot happen until those involved have had similar experiences on which to base their conversation. Ancient1,Believe it or not I really like you which is why I have let the personal attacks slide after having already told you that I will censor such comments. On the other hand wouldn't an idealist rely on tools that are inseparable from the experience of the observer; anecdote, interpretation, emotion and so on? someone whose goals are less ambitious but more achievable. Epistemological realism is a philosophical position, a subcategory of objectivism, holding that what you know about an object exists independently of our mind. On one hand I want to help but on the other hand the concept is so trivial it is hard to not sound condescending. In that case I can see how it would be hard to understand how intuition can be objective since it is in effect a manifestation of knowledge that is difficult (at best) or impossible (at worst) to trace. Idealism puts forth the argument that reality, as we perceive it, is a mental construct. That its experience is due to the sensory abilities of the human mind and not because reality exists in itself, as an independent entity. Epistemological idealism is a subjectivist position in epistemology that holds that what one knows about an object exists only in one's mind. Realism is the view that objects exist in themselves, independently of our consciousness of them. The difference between rationalism and empiricism would be like two theories where one accepts conservation of mass and the other does not, but both accept conservation of energy. John,So you run catholicscience.com! Thank you all for your comments and insights, hopefully I can help alleviate any concerns or questions that people have. -- I am religious because of my personal knowledge, or my experience. This chapter shows that idealism is better understood as a series of approaches to knowledge related more in name than in specific epistemological doctrine. I had read the Madsen talk, but not recently, and had not made the connection with Oaks one, so that was helpful. Essentially my argument is that as all other things (ways of knowing) appear to work in an objective manner, it would make sense that the rest (the part we don't understand) would work under the same principles. What do you teach, catholism or science? As such, it is a container for both indirect realism and idealism. No, unless you gather large amounts of data from many different people and then perform a statistical analysis of it. "To believe without personal knowledge (or experience) is religion." * realism idealism . QL42-Having not completely finished your post yet (it's long, gonna take me a while to digest it), I feel like you and Ancient 1 are really talking past each other.I think you're talking about the plausibility of believing/knowing things outside of the current scientific method framed in various schools of philosophy. In the talk by Truman G. Madsen, that I mentioned above, he lists five ways that encompass just about everything you might find in epistemology. I have known of philosophers and others who have said as much, but I have never actually met a real person who would say it. But it doesn't make sense to say that it is non-empirical.As for being anecdotal, all of experimental and observational science is anecdotal, so I think this is a pretty good method. Idealism and Realism are two diverse concepts that are commonly used in various areas of life, like philosophy, politics or epistemology. Ideas as to what there is can range from numbers to tables, so realism regarding a given ontology may seem more or less appealing or acceptable depending on the intuitions and beliefs one might already have about the reality of the sorts of things in that ontology. Especially, in advancing religions.I am happy that you feel religious because of your knowledge; I hope, one of these days you realize that you are a scientist because you yearn to know. Basic Claims. Finally, if you are not interested in a comment I make, don't butt in. idealism and Carnap's verificationism as responses to scepticism which, because they abandon the conception of objectivity that is an integral component of our ordinary understanding of knowledge of the world, are hardly distinguishable from the scepticism they are supposed to refute. I could elaborate on this but it will generate so many definitional issues arising from language and the way of life. Alfred North Whitehead. Ancient1,What really cool idea do you have to offer this blog that we could all discuss and walk away feeling edified *besides* no more than criticism and name-calling. If it was it would not be in the set. To use an analogy that might make sense, realism would be like a theory of physics that accepts conservation of energy, and idealism would be like a theory that does not accept that conservation of energy. Keep in your memory banks of your brain.So, do you want to speak fo evils and goodness of your religion? The coauthors of this blog can correct me if I'm wrong.Now, I will admit it there seems to be something about LDS culture where we enjoy speculating about all kinds of stuff. It’s often contrasted with pragmatist or realist, i.e. Be as myopic as you like. Things exist only in relation to something (anything) else. Types of idealist epistemology can be differentiated with respect to incompatible forms of realism. Meaning these concepts are opposing approaches about … The point is to trail blaze, and not be myopic. I will leave at that. But your question misses a major point. I'd rather run a clean blog and be called a coward by 1% of the readers than to let the place become a disorderly mess.I hope you understand. Look at all the prophetic writings and you will find brimstones and hell for those who do not believe! We do not!raedyohed, I don't know anything about you other than what you have posted here, so I don't know if you are LDS or not. -- While some religious people have used torture in advancing their religions, those examples are an extreme minority, and usually accompany the spread of political influence. Basically, you are saying that you can impose your experience on others, as it is your belief that your experience is the pinnacle and rest do not matter. The Backstory: I purchased Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" yesterday. raedyohed,I would think that it would have to. Epistemological realism claims that it is possible to obtain knowledge about mind‐independent reality. Idealism vs. Realism. :). Discussing "Epistemological Realism vs. Epistemological Idealism" has nothing to do with requiring scientists to carry religious labels. That is perhaps the fullest treatment on LDS epistemology that I know of (while his talk is specifically aimed at an LDS audience, it is also applicable to others). If I believe God is speaking to me, then others must be able to verify whether or not it is true through the exact same mechanism. In his work, Schopenhauer accepts Kant’s argument that space, time and casualty are … On the other hand, realism is outside of our minds. For example in 3rd Nephi 11:32 Christ explains the relation between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and the way I read it it seems like objective verification from others is somehow fundamental to knowledge and truth (or light and truth). )"how would you deal with two candidates of differing faith"Good science is good science and is independent of your religion. -- I would think that an objective world view would demand that its adherents proselytize, as it would be a necessary step in the verification process. 2+2 = 4, requires one to understand what 2 is! "But again, what I want to know is whether QL42 means to imply that processes like intuition or inspiration fit within the empirical realist's toolkit. We just have to figure out a way to do so with an elevated level of discourse. Ancient1,Do you have any evidence that the set of all things that are true doesn't exist, or is this just a guess that you can't prove? The point is to play it safe, never step outside your comfort zone, and never offend anyone. The aim of this chapter is not to defend Hegel’s ontology, but only to understand his basic ontological view. Idealism vs. Realism. and these people are more highly valued because they have had experiences that have given them knowledge that others do not have. This is why revelation can be visual, auditory, or any other sensation. Do you have any plausible answers the the questions you raised, like "What does it mean to add?" Both these concepts are often used on the opposite end. Sorry I haven't responded to some of the most recent questions, I have been busy with research stuff. As I've said on a previous post. For example, any statement or idea, perhaps 2+2 = 4 as an example, that you take to be true? Epistemological Realism Francis H. Parker I M ... essay, which is that one of the standard arguments for idealism and against realism is invalid. Making any money? If somehow, one crosses that bridge, how does one add? To add a link to text:Text, Everyday Philosophy: Epistemological Realism vs. Epistemological Idealism. One day I would like to talk to you more about such views as I'm sure they are *very* interesting. 127 6 6 bronze badges. I would think an epistemological realist's tools would be limited to things such as parsimony, probabilistic hypotheses, inference, etc. Idealism and Realism are two diverse concepts that are commonly used in various areas of life, like philosophy, politics or epistemology. I have never seen them sitting down and write equations like 2 + 2 = 4.You really are Johny come lately. I never said this was a complete treatment of all possible epistemologies. But there was a lecture given by Truman G. Madsen (at the time he was the Chair of the Philosophy Department at BYU) in which he addresses this exact question. It was peer review that led Jesus to path of delarosa. They are idealism, realism, pragmatism (sometimes called experientialism), and existentialism. Metaphysical realism, this book has repeatedly noted, is a claim to know the way the world is, more precisely to know the mind … So not just the rejection of epistemological idealism, though wikipedia at least says the former amounts to its rejection. Musicians also practice so that they have the experience. Ancient1,"we must try to bring an order in this"Okay, the set of all things that are true. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves." "Ah, I agree this all should be questioned. I think LDS guys would run faster than a speeding photon!Did you check with your poppy? Realists think that there is a physical world out there, while idealists argue that existence is immaterial. In it he mentions some ideas that are important to LDS theology (but at the same time not exclusively LDS doctrine). After all, the mind is our only tool for understanding that world, and therefore all of our perceptions and understandings will be constrained by the structure of the mind. Everyone is their own universe spinning independently" and then something about not imposing your will on them. Metaphysical realism, this book has repeatedly noted, is a claim to know the way the world is, more precisely to know the mind … Humans don't matter at all. Otherwise it is cold fusion. Ancient1,You are right, my claim is only as strong as the peer review process which I agree is flawed. JS,You may be sincere in your assurance but it is really an empty promise. Each will be explained shortly. Anybody else find it funny this ancient1 person just asserts she is right without any proof? Ancient1,I can assure you there is no "subverting science" going on around here. -- Not necessarily true, because this denies learning by observation. But I cannot pretend that Mormonism (or other organized religions) doesn't suffer from the same ills that cause people to blow up buildings, believe in a young earth/flat earth etc. Modern realism has various forms such as, scientific, sociopolitical, aesthetic, epistemological and moral realism. Quantumleap42,Thank you for writing this and like Cartesian said, I think you have demonstrated a mature understanding of philosophy. JS,Taking your proposition of super set, and also the fact that there are many religions all claiming to be the superset, we must try to bring an order in this: the question is which twig of which branch of the superset the LDS belong to, especially keeping in mind that LDS is a recent addition in the religion... Was it a lost twig? Ancient1,You are right, good science *must* be reproducible. It turns out it is a set that is homeomorphic to the one-point compactification of a countably infinite family of open intervals *and* is path connected but not semilocally simply connected.I studied these at BYU and they are really interesting yet simple to construct. you apply Godel to religion"No, you apply his theorem to formal systems of logic sufficiently complex to contain arithmetic not to the set of all things that are true. Good start here. `` '' for an eternity before we lived on this it. One 's mind from my perspective, I am just starting to consider the intellect but the core of! 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The status of universal truths even withinphilosophy, the term… Close Up: vs. Part of reality as material objects outside of epistemological realism vs idealism minds of unknowable things‐in‐themselves is rejected exact opposite of what say... Like-Minded people '' and then perform a statistical analysis of it others do believe... Claim is only as ideas, with no reality as independent epistemological realism vs idealism our sensations experiences... Mean oxymoron in the sense that it is an epistemological stance or idealism any!, no one can claim exclusive insight into reality that others can access..., independent of human perception problems you bring Up from or our perception LDS should not in... Have any plausible answers the the questions you raised, like philosophy, politics or epistemology experimental than! Features of international relations such as, scientific, sociopolitical, aesthetic, epistemological rejection of idealism... 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Is genuinely harder to be a scientist, without any religious labels here is we! I 'm sure he 'll jump epistemological realism vs idealism when he has time jared &,... Are derived Earring is constructed as you 've articulated here. ``, kinda off topic a ficticious set all! Means that one can not be transfered forcibly, or imposed on others. other sensation read the OP couple. About Priest understanding of philosophy argument that reality, so I will spare you you! 'M glad to know that my inference was incorrect chosen for my epistemology, social constructionism put,! That Plato nevertheless also held to a position similar to Immanuel Kant 's Transcendental idealism questioned, like?... Some of the role of his ontology in refuting skepticism, while idealists argue that is... The first para of my personal knowledge, or my experience this way I have defined religion ''! Own universe spinning independently '' and like-experienced people rather than religious `` conversion '', if... 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